Q: Nema17 – Frequency – Temperature issue
motor pwm stepper-motor pid-controller esp32
(1) I usually start with 1kHz and increase to 10kHz. 5kHz moves the motor smoothly. (2) You don’t need any PID controller, which is for another purpose. (3) You might consider higher microstepping resolution for smooth movement. (4) Let me know you config setting. (5) Are you using this kind of cheap AliEx module with a huge heat sink? TB6560 3A Stepper Motor Driver Module – US$6. fr.aliexpress.com/item/…
(5) Are you reading this app note? TB6560AHQ 2-phase stepping motor driver App Note- Toshiba toshiba.semicon-storage.com/info/…. (6) And have you read the friendly datasheet at least 3 times? TB6560AHQ 2-phase stepping motor driver App Note- Toshiba toshiba.semicon-storage.com/info/…
TB6560AHQ 3.5A 40V 2-phase stepping motor driver Datasheet – Toshiba toshiba.semicon-storage.com/info/…
What do you mean by “temperature not too much higher than normally should”? Usually it is OK to heat up to 80C. Datasheet says, temperature shutdown is 170C.
By MCPWM, do you mean this?docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-idf/en/latest/esp32/…
i have edited the post to add the code for the config. I will go with 1/16 then microsteps. Yes the module is this with the juge heat sink. Yes the component of esp32 is this what you send. About the temp is about the motor temp. It is not 80C i suppose it is around 35 cause it is touchable. What should i check in the documents that you have send to me.
i want to attach a cable on the motor and measure the tension on it. So i was going to use a pid controller in order to achieve tension. I was going to control frequency somehow.
(6) I don’t understand what you meant by “to attach a cable on the motor and measure the tension on it” Do you mean you want to measure the “torque”? (7) BAD NEWS and WARNING – I have the feeling that you are a stepper motor newbie and you have chosen a bad driver TB6560 to start learning. For newbies I usually recommend to start with A4988 or DRV8833. Your might to search this or other forums on how to use A4988 or DRV8833***
References: (1) A4988 Stepper Motor Driver – MakerFabs makerfabs.com/a4988-stepper-motor-driver.html (2) DRV8833 2 Channel DC Motor Driver Module – MakerFebs makerfabs.com/dvr8833-2-channel-dc-motor-driver-module.html
start learning , newbie or not i am sorry but i can not go in that type of discussion it is really bad thing for anyone to think that he is helping starting with this type of phrases. It is better not to try to help at all cause this answer give nothing. For A4988 you still need one pin for pulse and one for direction so i do not see any change in the problem , i see the same questions apply with this driver which means that your attack was completely useless.
If you know how to help please do so, if not you do not need to go in a newbie discussion to escape cause noone forced you to help. I am appreciating your comments at the beginning about how you control your system. Usually before i do a scale up on any machine i am trying the proof of concept. When i was talking about a cable i and tension i was really talking about this. A cable/rope will be attach and the motor will stretch the cable. Then with a tension module i will measure the tension of the rope.
(1) My apologies for wrongly though that you are a stepper newbie and my advice to stepper newbies. (2) Thank you for clarifying your objective of measuring the “tension of the rope attached to the stepper motor. I did once use a mini string balance to measure the motor torques. I might show you my tools used later. (3) I am also trying to measure the torque or a DRV8801 stepper motor. Perhaps I can give you the link of the chat about it.
(4) I agree that to prove a concept, any stepper would do.
2 hours later…
Tue 12:42
There you are – my stepper motor torque measurement setup.
Reference: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/…
3 hours later…
Tue 15:31
I am sorry to have misled you that A4988 and DRV8833 are for newbies only. Actually they are also popular among 3D printer / CNC pros. It is true that heavy duty machines use DM5xx stepper modules. I do also use DM542, but I found it tricky to do the config and testing. Let me show you my DM540/TB6600 stepper module like your TB6560. I don mind to to discuss using your prototyping modules.
References: How to use MCU (.. Rpi4B, Rpi Pico) and DM542 microstep driver to control NEMA 17 … stepper motors?
electronics.stackexchange.com/…
3 hours later…
Tue 18:50
Hi no worries about the comments. Before 2 years i started working in a cnc project which i stop cause of space but i managed to have 3 nema 42 motors used with dm542 i think and i used linux cnc to control them. This project worked smoothly and the usually setup was the common cathode. The speed of the motor was completely controlled from the LinuxCNC not from the cause this was a completely project. I did not have to go to low level things
Now i want to do some small machine that i can check with a tension module the tension of a rope. For this i have to stretch the rope. And it is the first time that i am doing it with esp32. So i tried to use the component which is more for dc motors using the pwm to control the dc applied on motor
In some example they are doing stepper control using the the set duty in microseconds
which is more about positioning if you have a stepper motor of 180degrees movement and you want to set it there. I want to use the stepper to control it with a pid controller to control the tension.
So i understand that in order to make the step motor to go faster or slower i have to change the pwm frequency. I am worried if this could bring problem on motor about heating. From what you said i am worried that you refer to temperature of the chip of the driver but i am worried about the temp of the motor
I assume that my previous test was a little more problematic on the code cause i tried to change the duty and i forgot that this is only for the dc motor. So i may have send more current that i should have done in the motor which means that i have to try again and see.
Tue 19:08
Thank you for your clarification. (1) I am setting up a test jig to measure the parameters of a motor coil, motor voltage, current, PWM frequency, duty cycle, speed, torque, … (2) This is a manual test version of my software test version which based on Rpi Pico MicroPython, … (3) The end of this video is on DMX540 using the
MKS testing tool (more about this later) youtu.be/jQFnPwpVREQ.
Ah, locking down supper time. See you later.
This tutorial says motor temperature of 80C is not big deal: machinedesign.com/…
Tue 19:52
I have changed my solution to use probably static frequency using 5000Hz as you proposed. Then i will go in the higher microstep resolution that i can with this driver which will give 200*16=3200steps/revolution. which probably mean that i could use 3200Hz also for the motor.
After this i am thinking of using one other time with doubled the frequency of the motor and sample from the tension module and just change directions or stop.
i just wanted to use pid for this also the the manual experience but if i use 1000-10000Kz then i probably need to put on pid range of -10000 – 10000 and somewho also map values between -1000-> -1 and 1->1000 in order always to use -1000 or 1000 for the frequency
fantastic video setup 🙂
3 hours later…
Tue 22:27
I still don’t appreciate why you are using PID. Me once used PID because I, say, want to move my robot car to a particular point (one step before falling down the cliff) ASAP without any overshoot. So I accelerate to the max speed, then move to say, 10 feet before falling over, then decellerate while travelling the last mile, and arrive target with zero velocity.
Perhaps you might like to let make me how you are using PID.
I searched my junk bin for the mks stepper motor test board,
youtube.com/…
and set up the DMX board to test
youtu.be/rx3JaFH8trQ
Ah, locking down bed time. See you tomorrow.
1 hour later…
yst 0:06
I want to use pid in order exactly as you described to control the tension lets say smoothly not completely in linear way but i assume it the sampling rate of the tension is 2 or more times bigger than the movement of the motor this should be ok and i will not have any case that motor never meets the target but it is always either more or less than the proper value. Thank you see you tomorrow
12 hours later…
yst 12:24
You might like to skim my old post on tmc2209 where I use a stepper motor with speed encoder: raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/….
The stepper motor tester with sig gen is handy to find the optimum frequency.
(1) Controlling a stepper motor through a signal generator 64,143 viewsMay 16, 2015
youtube.com/…
yst 13:00
this chip is very very very interesting and with uart you can get all info? even with uart you can control the frequency?
i tried to read a few things in the datasheet
can it work with bigger motors cause i saw it is up to 2A
though i suppose you propose to use it to find the best frequency using the jig and reading from uart and the put the proper pwm. but what if i want a non static frequency
i mean there is now a limit on min freq i can use before motor goes to stop moving without a stop signal. this does not allow me if i do not do some software mapping function to give the value to a pid controller.
is this chip able to handle it cause from pinout i see the same setup like all others
yst 13:28
this module is yours? you are selling it? can i find it in europe?
1 hour later…
yst 14:56
@kyrpav Do you mean tmc2209 using uart interface, or tmc2160. max 10A using spi?
@kyrpav I forgot the max current for tmc2209. For 2160, it is 10A.
@kyrpav Well, my current test jig for MX540/TB6560/TB6600 is only for newbies. The MKS OSC stepper motor driver tester uses the stupid 555 timer is not flexible at all. In my other testers, I use XY-LPWM which is very precise, and UART controlled.
@kyrpav Well, the current test jig is manual, push button operation, is stupid, and only for CNC guys who does not know software at all. I am going to try 42VDC motor power, and I worry that I will fry more drivers, so it is sort of safe tester.
@kyrpav Yes, as you all drivers have the basic signals, enable, direction, steps. But for tmc2209/2160, all the driver config and diagonstics are done in software uart or spi.
@kyrpav Yes, all modules on photo are mine, some are lying in the junk bin, collecting dust for years. The tmc2209/2160 are designed by the German guys, manufactured in ShenZhun, not too far away from my city, just across the boarder.
Now let me show you my test results:
The above is the big picture of step pulse, motor encoder output, and current sense resistor output, not all in sync, therefore display messy. I have written Pico Micropython functions to do the signals separately, step pulse, speed function, and current measurement.
more pics:
2 hours later…
yst 17:39
I got my tmc2160 from TaoBao. Perhaps you can find it in Amazon/AliExpress UK/Europe.
Makerbase MKS TMC2160-OC Motor Driver for 3D Printer – ¥77
item.taobao.com/…
AliEx got it: aliexpress.com/w/…
yst 17:53
BigTreeTech also has a US$20 version with metal case for strong anti EMI.
TMC2160 Stepper Motor Driver for 3d Printer CNC Machine – BigTreeTech US$20
fr.aliexpress.com/item/…
yst 18:06
I recommend the MKS tmc2160 version because it has the SPI and DIAG jumper for flexible config and diagnostics.
yst 18:35
you almost convinced me. so mks tmc2160 where the same question applies what do you propose to use in order to slow down the speed and not make the motor stall and get heated?
yst 18:58
and the diag is in order to put some manual control to the motor? i am not sure how that works i never used it. And that means that this version does not give you serial port isn’t it?
do you know any that gives you. I am not sure what is easier for esp32 to use spi or uart since i am not using arduino interface i am using the esp-idf framework
2 hours later…
yst 21:24
Ah, mks2160 video again.
yst 21:39
@kyrpav Well, I am thinking of using both uart tmc2219 and spi tmc2160, for my future projects. I started with uart 2209 because I just learned how to use Pico uart and found it easy. But then Pcio has only two uarts, not enough to go around for my many more projects. So I thought perhaps I can then use spi tmc2216 at the same time. Pico can entertain many more spi devices. I found both devices have similar config registers.
So learning one device is actually two devices together, as long as you are comfortable playing with uart and spi.
Another reason for playing with both is that when I searched for tmc2160 and tmc2209, I found almost all question is SE forums are one tmc2130 and tmc2208 which is a bit out of date. As I am just learning, so no harm but actually wise to learn new things.
me either used the DIAG thing. I guess it is for diagnostic or warning over current which means motor should be over heated. About optimum frequency, I just found out that, when playing with the mks motor driver testing tool, that even for a working frequency range, there are unique frequencies that the motor starts to tremble.
I read that there are some thing called “resonant” frequencies that the motor would oscillate. So the mks testier is handy to scan for such trouble making frequencies.
Next step is to use the mks tester to locate the trouble making frequencies and use a scope to check out if there are oscillations in the frequency range. I also need to look at closely the relations between current, voltage, motor current, and frequencies and duty cycles etc. I am a newbie in using “chopping mode” driving, so I need to spend some time building up knowledge in this area.
Ah almost bed time. So see you tomorrow.
7 hours later…
4:57
in the modules you send me there is not uart output from what i see, isn’t it?
6 hours later…
10:31
Ah, my apologies. Perhaps I missed sending you the relevant chats. They are:
(1) chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/… (started with tb6560)
(2) chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/… (started with drv88091)
(3) chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/… (started with tmc2130)
(4) tmc5160 (can do both SPI and UART)
trinamic.com/products/…
To summarize, tmc2130/60 can do spi, tmc2208/2209 can do uart, tmc5160 can do both.
(5) TMC5160 V1.2 SPI Stepper Motor Driver S5160 High Power Stepstick Mute Driver For 57 Stepper Motor F6 SKR V1.3 Board VS TMC2130
fr.aliexpress.com/item/…
(6) TMC5160
aliexpress.com/w/…
(7) tmc5160
forums.raspberrypi.com/…
Or I should not refer you the chats, but the real answers:
(8) Rpi Pico MicroPythpn Controlling TMC2208 / TMC2209 Stepper Motor Driver Problem – Asked 1 month ago, Viewed 466 times
raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/…
(9) tmc2209 driving stepper motor demo
youtube.com/…
In Refs 8 and 9, I played with 2209, using pico to generate steps. I could send a number of steps, instead of non stop PWM signals, to move the motor for a specified distance. See ref 9 and relevant demo code for detials.
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